I’ve spent the past week or so knee-deep in a very interesting dialog about “deconversion” that was spurred when a posting on this blog titled “Atheism Sells” caught the attention of the folks at de-conversion.com. I’ve enjoyed learning a little more about this community of people and their journeys toward and away from God. It has also make me think a lot about my own conversion experience and what it would be like to lose my faith.
As I pondered this, I found myself in touch with author Dave Schmelzer on another matter. Dave, a self-descibed former-atheist, is now a pastor in Boston. He wrote a book called “Not the Religious Type: Confessions of a Turncoat Atheist” and is hosting a conference in Boston in a couple of weeks that is intended to discuss the place where “faith and culture meet.” I sent him a note about this conversation and he promptly shared the information on his blog which has brought a number of new people into the conversation.
You just gotta love the Internet.
I know that notions of conversion and “de-conversion” (I’m still not sure whether or not that is a word) lead to deep theological questions that could spur a lively (and possibly contentious) debate about scripture and history. There is a place for that kind of wrestling in any spiritual journey and many outlets for that kind of conversation on other blogs and websites, but I would like to focus on a different aspect of the conversation here if anyone is game.
I have come to view my conversion from agnostisicm to Christianity (I believed in and prayed to a “power greater than myself”) as a change of heart rather than a shift in intellectual understanding. As a result of that change of heart, I have pursued and continue to pursue a deeper understanding of God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) through scripture and the spiritual disciplines of prayer, fasting, silence and, in many cases, sheer perseverance and endurance as my life has radically and rather counterculturally shifted from one orientation to another.
The Bible has much to say about the heart–guarding it, hardening it, softening it, etc. I am interested in learning about others’ experience of the heart as it relates to their coming to (and leaving) their faith. Hope to hear from you.
August 7, 2008 at 8:33 am
Joan,
If you change the link to d-C above to http://de-conversion.com/2008/08/01/featured-blog-reaction-by-flirting-with-faith/ instead of the root site, it will generate a pingback on that post and readers who are following that post will know you posted a follow-up.
Paul
August 7, 2008 at 11:17 am
Thanks Paul. You’ve been very kind with advice and guidance and I appreciate it. Any thoughts on the heart post?
August 7, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Joan,
What exactly is “the heart” to you, as opposed to “the mind?” Isn’t “the heart” simply a euphemism for an emotional state of mind?
August 8, 2008 at 1:16 am
“Apostate”
I have been, in one context or another, pursuing insight into that question for more than five years and I am happy to share with you what I’ve learned so far. Before I do, however, there are a couple of things I’d like to share in an attempt to keep misunderstanding to a minimum.
1) I do not feel compelled (or remotely empowered) to “reconvert” you. I believe that my faith was a gift and I am still surprised sometimes that I even have it. I came to this in what I have been told is an unusual way (see Sample Chapter tab on my blog for back story) and I have had an intensely tranforming experience ever since. The five years since I became a Christian have been the most difficult and, paradoxically, the most amazing of my life. I don’t believe that even the most stellar debating techniques or skillful cajoling on my part can make that sort of thing happen for you or anybody else.
2) Please don’t be put off if you get a lot of “I don’t knows” from me. My experience with God and scripture is more of an improvisation than a choreographed dance. I do not approach the Bible as a textbook–although I do pull it apart, meditate on it, chew on it (an sometimes fight with it) on a regular basis. To me it is living and breathing and it informs me differently at different times at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Crazy talk? I would have thought so before this faith came to me. Now this is just how I roll.
Now that we have that out of the way, let’s talk about the mind/heart question…
In my experience the line between the mind and heart is not strictly emotional–although I think things emotional do reside in that part of me that I would define as the heart.
When I refer to the head I mean the intellect. Rationality. That which I can explain and justify with reason. This is part of me that majored in economics and minored in mathematics in college. This is the part of me that debated religion with my now-husband when we were dating and I was an atheist and he was a Christian. It is also the part of me that bought into the ideals of money, power, prestige and possessions as defining what it means to live a successful and enjoyable life.
When I refer to the heart I am referring to something less tangible. This is where intuition and conscience reside. This is what I can feel in my “gut” or in my “chest.” This is where my character (and my character defects) reside. It is where creativity and innovation are born. Before my experience, this place was ruled by ambition and the desire to get ahead. It cared a lot about what people thought of me, how I looked and what I had. And, because I had a pretty good head on my shoulders, I was able to achieve these “heart’s desires” by making a lot of money and living a very desireable lifestyle. In the years following my conversion, I have experienced a shift in my “heart’s desires.” This was not a shift from bad to good. Instead, it was a shift of priorities and motivations. I have changed and I find myself pursuing new “heart’s desires”–things like pursuing a deeper meaning of what it means to love others unselfishly or becoming more kind and patient, putting others first, etc.–even when it is seemingly (in my head) to my disadvantage. This stuff would have been sappy drivel to me back in the day.
Now it is my hope that I will pursue these new heart’s desires with the same passion and fervor that I pursued the money, power, prestige and possessions.
Did you have a change of heart, or was it more of an intellectual shift?
August 8, 2008 at 9:37 am
>>>I believe that my faith was a gift and I am still surprised sometimes that I even have it.
If ‘faith’ is a gift… why doesn’t god grant it to all? (you’re going to say i just need to reach out and accept it arnt you
) is the field of Muslims and Hindus as much a gift as your faith? Or is their faith ‘incorrect’ faith?
>>Did you have a change of heart, or was it more of an intellectual shift?
I not sure i understand what this means… what the difference is between the two things
One day you thought that the bible wasn’t the son of god, the next you did? i wonder how often this happens? seems a bit weird to me … what really happened? did you get a tangeable revelation from a dream or something?
August 8, 2008 at 10:08 am
i realise a lot of that is quite muddled. sorry.
August 8, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Hey qmonkey: No. I won’t say that you just have to reach out and accept it because I spent a number of years in my early 20s looking for something–maybe anything–to believe in. I dabbled in Hinduism and Buddism, followed the New Agers into crystals and Transcendental Meditation, I read Nietsche and Ayn Rand, I did acid and drank and tried to find something there. I even picked up a copy of the Satanic Bible at a used bookstore once figuring that the genuine seeker does not discriminate. I woke up in the middle of the night and threw it out which may have been my first, albeit creepy spiritual experience.
All in all none of them satisfied my rational mind and I landed as an atheist. It made much more sense to me. It was based on what I could see, hear, feel, touch, taste and smell. I was comforted by the notion that there was nothing out there that I could not understand with a little training and education.
That is what what happened to me is so unbelievable (even to me, and I lived it). You can check the link titled “Sample Chapter” above to get a play by play of what happened. It is a narrative account of the day I came to believe.
I don’t know about gifts and other faiths. This is the only one that has stuck for me.
Best,
Joan
August 8, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Joan,
Likewise, I am not trying to coax you into de-conversion. I love my agnosticism, strange as that sounds, but such has not always been the case. Nor do I believe that paradigm shifts come from one or two debates (or by debating at all).
Thank you for the response and the preventive clarifications. I generally don’t like to assume someone is trying to convert me when I impinge on their blog
I understand, as much as I can, where you are coming from. I believe, however, that we come from different backgrounds. I grew up as a conservative (although not fanatical) evangelical background. While “evangelical,” my father was also Mennonite, a denomination that has been known for its hard-working mentality, high ethical standards, pacifism, and obsession with charity. I continued to carry on such beliefs and, despite my de-conversion, I still do. My parents raised me to be responsible with my hard-earned money, but not be owned by it. I continue to be drawn to philosophical systems that are rather stoic in nature.
I bring this up only because I think we have paradigm shifts due to something in our background. Much of my religious background was presented as being rational, mostly because of my father’s demeanour and my mother’s passion, but in actuality is was almost entirely sensationalist. I only started critiquing my faith to build it. I studied as much as I can so that I could better defend my faith. The problem was that the more I tried to defend it, more problematic issues arouse.
I can only now consider myself a naturalist, meaning that I believe we can explain the majority of life through what we observe in nature (the anthropologist/sociologist in me) and reason with intellectual logic (the philosopher in me). When I hear sensationalist arguments, especially based on aesthetic values I can only give it so much credit. I have seen much beauty in this world, as well as ugliness. I find that concepts such as creativity and innovation come from not only human consciousness, but the brain-power of almost every higher organism. I can see how this sort of thing is explained through natural means. I can also see how people of certain mindsets have a propensity towards viewing the natural world in an “other-wordly” way (mainly because the majority of my closest friends are artists of different sorts).
About sappiness. I can be pretty sappy. I can be emotional. But I’m not going to bet my life on my emotions or even my subjective experiences. I have been to faith-healings and seen some intense powerful preaching. I have witnesses amazing “miracles,” yet nothing seems to compare with the raw beauty of my wife giving birth to my first (and now second) daughter. It wasn’t until then that I could actually say that I was a true humanist/naturalist. I didn’t need to add a deity into the equation to make the event any more special than what it was. It was the single most beautiful event that nature provides, period. This, however, could hardly be called a transformative event, at least in regards to my lack of faith, in my life.
I think all de-conversions are complicated because we don’t expect it to happen. Looking back, I believe it was a bit of both (assuming we are going to talk symbolically about “heart”). I had a change of heart in my first year of Bible college. I made a radical switch from conservative politics to liberal politics (although holding onto conservative theology). I thoroughly studied the Sermon on the Mount and I could no longer justify my small-c conservativism.
By the end of my second year of Bible college I could no longer call myself a small-o ‘orthodox’ Christian. This, however, was an intellectual shift, not a “change of heart.” I could no longer defend my previous conservative theology without betraying what I had learned about the Bible. I held onto a liberal/emergent faith for several years before calling myself an “agnostic Christian.” Again, the degradation of certainty was an intellectual judgment. I could no longer philosophically defend the worldview of a Christian based on revelation. My Christianity, if any left, would have to be very symbolic and thoroughly heretical. Once you get to that point, there is not much left of a faith to defend. I could still call myself an “agnostic Christian,” but I may as well call myself an “agnostic Buddhist.”
August 9, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Hi joan- found you from barbaras site. I really like your way of sharing your transformation in your worldview.belief. I wrestle all the time with the *heart* as well. In looking up the definition I saw that biblically the *heart* refers to our mental/emotional/will aspect of ourselves. No matter how much we may feel, our feelings are generated by our minds apprehension of something that evokes emotion. I also think a bit of mystery needs to be included in that we are finite and cannot fully comprehend the infinite or we would in essence be close to infiniteness ourselves. I applaud you on a huge degree of maturity and humility you display in how you openly say, *i don’t know* lol amazing how often we all seem so scared to say those words. Hope you will stop by my place joan i really enjoy your journey you share
August 11, 2008 at 8:44 am
Tu palabra mi Senor me ayuda
como balsamo mi pena calma
deja que a mi vida siempre fluya…
para mitigar la sed de mi alma.
Besos D B D
es un corito quizas Martin lo recuerde
August 11, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Apostate: Was off-line for much of the weekend, but wanted to thank you for your post. I registered on your site and hope to have the opportunity to read your chapters as you move forward on your book project.
Can I ask about your experience with “liberal/emergent” faith? I’m most interested in how you define it and what your experience was with it, i.e. who did you read and how did it impact your faith at the time (practice/viewpoints) and your subsequent decision to walk away.
Also, I am very interested in your “agnostic Christian/agnostic Buddhist” comment. Would love to hear more on that if you care to expand.
August 11, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Robert: Here, here on the mystery! My faith is steeped in mystery and, despite my roots as a know-it-all control freak I am coming to value living in the unknown. Please send me a link to “your place” and I will gladly check it out.
August 11, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Regarding the heart vs mind question, for me, as a decades-long atheist physicist, it was a matter of opening my mind to the possibility of God’s existence first. Once the existence of God came to seem intellectually very likely, I opened my heart and saw what that really meant.
I’ve reflected on why it took me so long to change in a recent post on my blog called “On the Breaking of Bad Habits Acquired in One’s Youth: Smoking and Atheism.” I actually encountered the “must not have been a real atheist” response from a number of commenters I engaged with on an atheist blog. I also wrote about that (Conversations in the Clubhouse of Truly Smart People) on my blog if anyone is interested.
August 12, 2008 at 12:32 am
Joan
Heres a little prayer for your son, my daughter loves it.
We will win
Why? we’ll tell you why.
Because we have faith, courage and enthusiasm
God, thank you for this day
Bless our mothers and fathers
And all our loved ones
And make us have another wonderful day,
Tomorrow.
Amen
August 12, 2008 at 12:38 am
Hey joan- o yes gotta love mystery!!! I think control is just a way to try and feel a measure of security in a way other than faith. My link is http://www.magicbear.blogspot.com come by anytime
August 12, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Hi Robert: Thanks for stopping by. You got caught in my spam filter for a couple of days. Will check out magicbear when I come up for air.
August 13, 2008 at 11:35 am
Hey John t: Beautiful prayer–I appreciate you sending it over. One question about it, though. When you and she pray “we will win” what are you winning?
August 13, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Hi Joan
We are winning in “Life”…….the positive view and outcome of it. Its all about energy, and perspective. When I ask my daughter why she is a winner, she says, Daddy, its because I have faith, courage and enthusiasm!
August 21, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Joan:
Couldn’t help but notice this passage in your article:
I have pursued and continue to pursue a deeper understanding of God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) through scripture and the spiritual disciplines of prayer, fasting, silence
Have you read any writings from the Eastern Orthodox tradition? From what I’ve read by you, I think you would like their perspective on the faith.
I can suggest some readings it you are interested. (Of course if you’re at all like me, you’ve got a to-be-read list 3 years deep.)
August 21, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Hey LeoPardus: I do have a deep to-read bench, but am always interested when a new category opens up. I’ve not read anything that I’ve known to be Eastern Orthodox and would love some suggestions.
August 21, 2008 at 4:19 pm
All-righty then. Here are some starter ideas.
“For the Life of the World” by Alexander Schmemman (The early chapter do a great job of explaining sacramental theology. A bit later on in the book he starts explaining a lot of stuff in light of the Divine Liturgy. This latter doesn’t make so much sense until you know the Liturgy. To know that, you have to attend an EO church for a while.)
“The Orthodox Church” by Timothy ‘Kallistos’ Ware (Good intro and good basic history.)
The really deep praxis stuff would be almost any Desert Father, John Climacus, Anthony Bloom, and maybe John Cassian.
If you really want to get a good grasp on the EOC, your very best bet would be to talk to an EOC priest who knows about converts, or is one himself. (Note that many EOC priests don’t have clue one what to do with converts or inquirers.) If you’re looking for a priest to talk to, I suggest looking for OCA or Antiochian EO churches in your area. They usually have the most experience with converts.