Today is my one-month anniversary as a blogger.
Before all of you early-adopter types start giggling, you can rest assured
that I am well aware that I am behind the curve here. The impact of Web 2.0 on
communication and marketing was a hot topic in PR circles before the term Web
2.0 was coined in 2004, but it was only recently that I felt prompted to join the conversation.
If I put my old PR hat on, I could use this lead for a dozen different
articles; from the perspective of a “tip of the spear” Gen Xer on social
networking (I was born in 1966) to a light-hearted look at my online
relationship with my 18 and 19 year old kids.
Instead, a quick review of my blog stats for the month of July is driving
this post. As I assessed the pageviews and where they originated, I found that the bulk of the click-throughs to my WordPress blog came as a result of a piece titled I was Never a Real Atheist from people who had searched or followed a link to the word atheism tagged to the post.
Apparently atheism sells.
I followed the links backward and found myself in the land of Christian de-conversion.
Now de-conversion may be a hot topic in Bible-college circles, but I wasn’t
even sure if it was a real word. Webster’s online says that it’s not, but the folks that are contributing and commenting at http://de-conversion.com use it frequently.
The site claims to provide “Resources for Skeptical, De-Converting and Former Christians” and is a social network/support group for confused, hurt and angry Christians who have either already “de-converted” or claim to be in the process of doing so.
The site claims to have logged 667,660 hits since March 2007 and, while they could be elevating those numbers, the volume of comments on the featured posts is such that I would not be surprised if it were true.
I am sure that there is much to be said theologically about whether or not “de-conversion” is possible if a person had a genuine experience with Jesus, and I am not remotely studied enough to go there, but as I read the posts of dozens of self-proclaimed “former believers” I saw a pattern emerge:
1. I grew up in the church and loved the Lord once.
2. I began to question and doubt.
3. My questions and doubts were either dismissed or ignored or responded to with platitudes that I could not accept.
4. When it was clear that I would not be satisfied with platitudes, I was told that I was defective, i.e. I wasn’t
really saved in the first place, I was looking for an excuse to sin, etc.
5. I am grateful to find this community of people who are also doubters and skeptics (and ultimately unbelievers) so that I do not have to walk this path away from the faith of my childhood on my own.
The unbelief proposed by whoever designs and moderates the site (I could not find evidence of a clear “owner”) portrays in the site description a kinder, gentler version of atheism that might appeal to a once-faithful doubter…
“For the most part, we believe the teachings of Judaism, Christianity, & Islam, based on the perceptions and myths of a nomadic ancient Middle Eastern tribe, should be viewed critically – as should the holy books of these religions. This blog attempts to critically, but respectfully, address issues with these religious ideologies, especially Christianity. If you are a skeptical, de-converting, or former Christian, you may find these discussions interesting.
We also believe that whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God
reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds -when there is a significant lack of evidence on who God is or if he/she even exists.
(de-conversion.com, July 2008 )
That can’t be so bad, right?
And yet, many of the posts betray what I interpret to be sadness as a result of the perceived loss of faith. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but a number of the respondents still attend church and participate in ministry despite what they describe to be a sense of isolation and unbelief. It made me wonder who these people are and how their churches (and churches in general) tend to handle a person who is struggling with a perceived loss of faith?
Would love to hear thoughts on this…
Flirting With Faith 
August 1, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Joan,
This is coming directly from the WordPress widget for Blog Stats. No elevation on our part.
BTW, use the “quote” feature on your “Visual” bar when you’re putting in a quote and it makes it a little easier to read. Also, 8 ) (together) makes that smiley face 8). You’ll have to put a space between to avoid it.
Thanks for stopping by d-C. I’ll comment more on a few of your thoughts later.
Paul
August 1, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Thanks for stopping by Paul and for the navigation assistance. I didn’t even notice that smiley face (and I am no fan of “emoticons.”
As I mentioned, I am not surprised that your numbers are straight from Blog Stats–there is a lot of conversation happening over at d-C. Look forward to your comments and further conversation.
Best,
Joan
August 1, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Unfortunately, many Christian churches today have drifted away from Biblical teachings. As a result, when someone has a question they are given platitudes rather than legitimate discussion and Biblical answers. As a result, the seeker becomes dissatisfied and frustrated. We need to give real answers as shown by and in the Bible, not theory or platitudes. Also, we need to admit if we don’t know an answer. There is no shame in admitting you don’t know everything. It is prideful to pretend otherwise.
August 1, 2008 at 8:07 pm
[…] 1, 2008 A new blogger, Joan Ball, from the “Flirting with Faith” blog, recently found herself “in the land of Christian […]
August 1, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Glad you didn’t or you’d be no different that the Geek Squad atheist (from your previous post) who told you because you converted, you were never an atheist. Was he correct?
August 1, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Joan,
What type of Christian are you? Calvinist? Arminian? Do you adhere to Lordship Salvation? What is your view of hell? Will most of the world be tormented for ever and ever? just curious what the Lord has revealed to you. I really hope you answer my questions. They are not meant to be sarcastic.
August 1, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I was sad, because I genuinely wanted to be a Christian! I would rather have not had my mother yelling at me in my own home, and refusing to let my brothers and sisters visit me. That would make anyone sad. But wanting to believe cannot make a religion any more true.
I am less sad now, because I am no longer isolated (isolation being a key contributor to sadness in anyone, theist or no). I have found a few people locally, and many people internationally (on Atheist Nexus) who do not presume to tell me I am an instrument of Satan. It suits me quite nicely
August 2, 2008 at 12:08 am
I find it all funny. Some Christians will claim that deconverts were never really saved while many atheists say the same about former atheists.
August 2, 2008 at 12:42 am
Joan:
As a partial response to your last question about who we are, permit me to recommend you go to the archives of the de-conversion.com blog and looking at an article titled, “By the way, who are the de-cons?”
August 2, 2008 at 1:02 am
It made me wonder who these people are and how their churches (and churches in general) tend to handle a person who is struggling with a perceived loss of faith?
Reading the blog will provide a decent idea of who we are. As for your second point, I don’t see what a church can do for us. From my old church, I’m currently receiving a lot of prayer, as well as advice for who is really to blame for my current doubts. Neither of which is actually helpful, but I appreciate the intent behind both.
August 2, 2008 at 6:49 am
LorMarie: I find it all funny as well–that is why I am grateful to be part of the conversation.
August 2, 2008 at 6:50 am
Quester: Do you perceive your “current doubts” and de-conversion to be the same thing?
August 2, 2008 at 6:52 am
LeoPardus: Thanks for pointing to the “Who Are the De-cons” article. I will be sure to check it out.
August 2, 2008 at 6:53 am
Paul: Thank you for your gracious “Feature” on de-conversion.com. It has led to some interesting dialog here that I hope we can continue.
August 2, 2008 at 6:59 am
Hello “Nerd”: I think sadness and isolation are a little like the chicken and the egg–I’m not sure which came first, but both can be devastating. I’m glad that you’ve found some people to connect with and I hope that you will stop around here from time to time to share your thoughts.
August 2, 2008 at 7:10 am
Hi Bill: I don’t even know where to start with your question. I have never studied religion, so I am not actually sure what the difference between a Calvanist and an Ariminian (I almost wrote Armenian) is. Same for the term “Lordship Salvation”–I haven’t a clue what that means.
Here is what I believe.
I was an interested seeker in my early 20s. I read lots of spiritual books from a variety of traditions because I wanted something (maybe anything) to believe in. Nothing stuck and I concluded that it was because there was nothing–and, in retrospect, I was pretty angry about that at some level. Through my late 20s into my early 30s I recovered from a very challenging marriage, raised my 2 kids as a single mother, got into a program of recovery to overcome alcohol and drug issues and started over–with a vengence. I remarried, got “back on track” and built a very good career.
My husband was a Christian whose personal belief was strong (but was willing to date and ultimately marry a Christian, although I was a “power greater than myself” agnostic at the time.”
When I came to believe (described in My Story on the blog) I knew nothing of theology or Calvinism or Catholocism or any of it. I pray, I read the Bible, I read thinkers from all sides of the church conversation and I do not feel compelled to “pick a side.” I try to grow in love and to shrink in pride and I try to follow the example of Christ in all that I do. Some days I succeed and some days I fail. But I keep moving along.
I am not the person I was 5 years ago and I hope I am not the same person 5 years from now. I’m not sure what all of that makes me.
What “kind” of Christian were you?
August 2, 2008 at 9:05 am
Joan,
thanks for your honest answer. I am a conservative, Arminian, non-Lorship Christian. My point of asking those questions was to see if you really believe in the God of the Bible or in a God of your own making. Many people claim to be Christians yet their faith is not built upon the God of the Bible, but rather it is built on their own ideas about who God is and they just call themselves Christian. They have an experience an attach their belief system to a fabricated image of Jesus that they have developed subconsiously over the years. The Bible tells us to search the scriputres to see if the things written therein are true. Have you done that yet? Probably not, learning about the God of the bible is a time consuming process that takes years. When you do I wonder if your views will change.
August 2, 2008 at 9:19 am
Bill,
Are you saying that people who don’t see God he’s described in the Bible (a genocidal, war-mongering killer) are not “true Christians?”
There’s a very large percentage of Christianity who sees God as a loving, compassionate, merciful, kind father in heaven who has a good plan for their life (which is in reality “A God of their own making”).
You are right. Same goes for Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible called people names, insulted his family, was callous towards family members taking care of their family or lost loved ones, etc. Nothing like the Jesus portrayed in much of modern Christianity. In essence much of modern Christianity does have a “fabricated image of Jesus.”
Given these facts, just curious as to what percentage of Christians do you view as “real Christians?”
I may be an apostate but I believe Christianity needs to be defended from those claiming to have a corner on the market as to what “true Christianity” is. There are thousands of Christian denominations most of whom truly believe they’re following the Bible (as they understand it). Why is your interpretation correct and everyone else incorrect?
Paul
August 2, 2008 at 11:31 am
Roopster,
The more I read your stuff, the more respect I have for you. As a Christian I am really interested in de-conversion. Your questions, and your reasons for leaving the faith make the most sense to me. You ask the right questions, and you don’t let Christians get away with saying non-sense. I hope to continue to be challanged by reading what you have to say.
Joan,
I’m really enjoying the blog. You seem to have done well in earning the respect of de-converted people where others have failed for a variety of reasons, namely being a little mindless with their comments. Please keep up the good work.
Bill,
Brother, you seem to have good intentions but ease up on the vocab. I’ve been a student of Theology for several years now, and I know its hard not to crank out some expensive lingo bought at Bible College or Seminary, but sometimes its better to leave it in the classroom.
Nerd,
I hate to hear you got shunned by your family. I agree with Joan though, I’m glad you’ve found some community and please keep sharing. Stories like your help people like me remember to not be jerks when friends leave the faith. Thanks for challanging me.
August 2, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Hi Bill: One of the interesting outcomes of my conversion experience was a strong compulsion to study the Bible. I spent hours each day chewing on and pulling apart scripture. I think I hoped, at first, to figure it all out. That was my nature. I was a high achiever and a bit of a know-it-all, so I wanted the facts. But, as I explored the texts and they began to move me and inform my attitudes and actions, I began to see that there was something else there. I’ve “uncovered” some wonderful treasures and am confident that there are more there for me to find if I continue to study and seek to know God. I’ve also uncovered a lot of things that make me go hmmm, but I do not dismiss them or try to argue them away. Those unknowns are part of my journey and I have a lifetime to learn.
As for whether or not my faith is based upon the “God of the Bible” that is my hope and my prayer. I seek to know God more every day. I pray for wisdom and discernment and guidance. And I trust that if I remain diligent in my search, God will keep my path straight. I know it sounds a little contrived. And sometimes I can’t even believe that this is what I believe now. But this is how I roll.
August 2, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Roopster,
I was trying to make a point and that being that for me as a Christian I struggle with the idea that anyone can call themselves a Christian. What does that mean? Does one have to be a Calvinist? and Arminian? Does one have to follow all of Christ’s teaching or just a few select teachings. I think it is great that you were defending Joan, but my point was more in support of your point of view then Joan’s. What is a Christian? Is Christianity based on the Bible or one’s interpretaton of the Bible? If it is not based on the Bible then who cares if the Bible is the word of God or not? I am not trying to insult anyone or sound harsh, but I am often frustrated by the question, “who are the real Christians?”
August 2, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Thanks for the explanation Bill. For me a real Christian would be a person who chooses to be a follower of the teachings attributed to Christ. Period. In many ways, I still consider myself a follower of Christ & a Christian by birth even though I do not believe what Hank & Co. would call “essentials.” However, I do try to live my life by what I consider to be the core teachings of Christ. Problem is that it’s a very small subset of the gospels. In essence, I’ve widdled the Bible down to about a page and a half and that’s what I believe. That is a long way from what most people would call Christianity 🙂
Paul
August 2, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Roopster,
Do you believe in an afterlife? I am not asking this for any other reason then to know more about your current state of faith.
Joan,
What do you think about heaven and hell?
August 3, 2008 at 12:57 am
Bill: Both of my parents died in April of this year–22 days apart. My mother was fighting kidney cancer and my father died suddenly of a stroke. They were young–65 and 67 years old respectively. As you can imagine, this has been an emotionally challenging time for our family. It has also been a time of spiritual seeking for me around the question of what happens when we die.
I’ve just started unpacking this question and would be more than happy to share my thoughts in this forum at some time in the future when I have a little more clarity and I am a little further away from this time of mourning. I hope you can understand.
Joan
August 3, 2008 at 1:21 am
Bill,
I’m not really sure if there’s an afterlife. No way to really know until you get there (or not). However, I definitely do not believe in hell (even as a Christian I started to doubt the existence of hell.
Paul
August 3, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Joan
I linked up via De conversion. I have been reading and adding to the blogs there for about a month or so. I am neither Christian nor Atheist. Funny, but my take on that is, both are a little extreme, though it was pointed out to me on De con that was not true lol. I think your story is very interesting, and it seems that your experience has been life altering. I just wanted to remark that I believe most people want a sense of community. And most communities are based on some kind of common experience or belief. I do like much of what the Christian walk can bring to a persons life. The fact that it “thinks” its the absolute truth is what truly keeps me from whole heartedly accepting it. Atheism doesnt make sense to my brain. Im all for evolution and other scientific breakthroughs but none of them speak to what could or did start it all. The magnificance and beauty of the world all point to some level of intelligence behind it(hence the idea of a creator of sorts), at least in my brain. Well just a few thoughts on a Lazy sunday afternoon.
John T.
August 4, 2008 at 10:15 am
Hi John T: Thanks for coming by and joining the conversation. You are not the only one who struggles with this question both in and outside of Christian circles. I certainly struggled with it for many years before I came to faith and I continue to seek a deeper understanding of what God has to say on matters of truth and love and how I am supposed to live them out in my day-to-day life.
As I have written elsewhere, I have found the Christian faith to be rather surprising. I had many preconceived notions of it that were perpetuated by poorly behaved people and bad press. When I looked past some of that noise and began to explore the Bible prayerfully with the intention of knowing God better rather than “figuring it all out” I began to see a beauty and a wisdom there that trancended whether or not I could get my arms around each and every logistical detail. I guess that’s faith.
I hope you visit again soon.
Joan
August 5, 2008 at 4:35 pm
[…] dialog about “deconversion” that was spurred when a posting on this blog titled “Atheism Sells” caught the attention of the folks at de-conversion.com. I’ve enjoyed learning a little […]
August 8, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Hi Joan, I’m a little late to this conversation. I was just directed to your blog today by Barbara’s blog. I’m a christian, and though I didn’t lose my faith, it did change and my church perceived the change as a loss or rejection of faith. I’ve also witnessed a growing handful of friends who have lost or turned from their faith for various reasons.
Its probably not the case in all churches or all situations, but from what I’ve seen the church doesn’t really know what to do with these people so it defaults to ostracizing them in order to “protect” the rest of the congregation. In my case, the members of my now-husband’s and my church were told by the leadership not to have any “fellowship” with us. This essentially meant all of our friends from the (small, tight-knit) community of the church stopped talking to us. A year later, shortly before we were married, one of our former friends wrote us a scathing letter about how wrong we were to be marrying while “not under grace”. That was over 5 yrs. ago and was the last we’ve heard from any of them.
Many of our friends have had similar experiences. Some have had compassionate, well-meaning friends try to re-convert them…usually ending bitterly on both sides…but for the most part, from what I’ve seen, the church likes to quickly forget about their lost members and shelter the congregations from them.
My husband and I no longer go to church. Maybe someday we’ll go back. For now, we’re working on building community with like-minded (actually like-hearted if that’s a word) people in other ways.
All that’s the long way of saying: “Hello, I like your blog and I’m planning to add it to my list of places I stop and visit.” I also appreciate the way you’re dealing with what can be some very touchy subjects: with love, humility, respect and understanding toward people, asking questions and treating them as opportunities for open conversation. 🙂
August 11, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Hi Rahime: I wonder if you would share what it was that changed in your faith that led your church community to perceive you and your husband as being “out of grace.”
August 12, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I think I have found my yin and my yang in blogs. This one and the de-con site. I think they mesh well. Roopster, I find you mentioned a lot of interesting things about the God/Jesus in the bible. A part of me wants to discuss this with you further because I disagree about the negative attributes you assigned to the deities in question. But then a part of me wants to say, what’s the point in debating it with an Atheist if I myself am close to being an atheist(not yet though). I think in understanding the Torah one must study it along side the Talmud, and that other book they use (I am not assuming you have not studied it, maybe you have and still have those same conclusions). But from my conversations with my Jewish friends they do explain it in such beautiful way that at least makes me neutral on the matter. And I do think Dawkins/Hitch/Harris do over step their boundaries due to their limited study of the matter. But this is not meant to disrespect you Roo, I have a great deal of respect for you and all the de-cons.
August 13, 2008 at 3:19 am
Joan, I don’t mind at all sharing what changed. In many ways it more of a refining what we already thought, articulating it and supporting it with scripture. Honestly, its probably not accurate to say that this was a change in my faith, because it didn’t really change my relationship to God, but rather to other Christians. It did, change my faith indirectly though because leaving the church opened up a lot of questions and opportunities for conversation that I wouldn’t have had before. The short version is that it boiled down to a difference in opinions on the role and purpose of church leadership. My husband and I believe that the purpose church leadership should be to help people to grow and mature in their faith and then to release them. I have seen a lot of ministries and churches reach a bottle-neck in their spiritual growth and abilities because they are unable to grow beyond the limits of the leaders or because the leaders have a need to maintain a parent-young child type of relationship with the people under them. I think this ultimately relates WAY back to Samuel’s time when Israel rejected God and demanded a king. In many ways (at least in many of the evangelical churches I’ve seen) the congregants treat their pastors (depending on them, placing themselves under their “cover”, etc.) the way one might treat a king. So, it’s a two-way problem. Other aspects of my faith have changed for the better since being out of the church, and this particular topic really isn’t much of an issue for me these days since I’ve been out of the rat race, but this was what pushed me through the door. I love now being around people who aren’t afraid to ask the hard questions, people who are ok with saying that they don’t have all the answers, and people who are more interested in listening and conversing than lecturing and debating.
August 13, 2008 at 11:27 am
Rahime: Thank you for sharing. Did you say that you found another church or have you stopped going? Just wondering where you have found these “people who aren’t afraid to ask the hard questions,” etc.
August 13, 2008 at 11:33 am
Brandon: Just wondering what it means to be “almost an atheist.” Would you care to share your story here?
August 13, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Not at church; I’ve found most of them online, several in real life. I haven’t gone to church since, but mainly because I’m seeing God do things outside the church these days. After growing up in church I had become very weary of churches, the incident with my last church was the straw that broke the camel’s back so to speak. It wasn’t the only reason I stopped church, but it was the last tipping point. I may go to another church someday, but my interactions with God haven’t really changed and in some ways have more depth, so I’m not really in a hurry.
August 13, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Joan
I guess to best sum it up – I have no reason to believe, I am just too stubborn to let go.